Comments on: Something about the I Ching http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/ A Journal of the Irrepressible Mon, 23 Jun 2008 02:20:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2.3 By: peter oreoluwa dorcas http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1128 peter oreoluwa dorcas Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:29:26 +0000 http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1128 hi Brian thats great work done by u.but dis I ching stuff i av been trying to log in reading since all this while but it has not be through,what happen? especially concerning my login section.all those reply i read was very interesting, myself i like something like that. thanks. waiting for your reply hi
Brian thats great work done by u.but dis I ching stuff i av been trying to log in reading since all this while but it has not be through,what happen? especially concerning my login section.all those reply i read was very interesting, myself i like something like that.
thanks. waiting for your reply

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By: Brian http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1125 Brian Tue, 17 Jun 2008 04:24:28 +0000 http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1125 Hi again, Karuna, Would you be interested in gathering your thoughts about The Marrying Maiden and perhaps other hexagrams for Puck? I'd love to hear what you have to say. You can get my email address as well as learn more about Puck on the About page. --Brian Hi again, Karuna, Would you be interested in gathering your thoughts about The Marrying Maiden and perhaps other hexagrams for Puck? I’d love to hear what you have to say. You can get my email address as well as learn more about Puck on the About page. –Brian

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By: Karuna http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1124 Karuna Tue, 17 Jun 2008 04:13:45 +0000 http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1124 Brian, I thought I had nothing else to add--but..I can't understand even why you think how you do. That The Marrying Maiden is most about women or prostitution is a much more narrow or limited/tradtiional view in itself. You know yourself the I Ching is abstract, and encompasses many istuations, and life matters in one hexagram alone. #54 is'nt even always about women, it's all metaphor.But I knw you know that! I'm not at all saying we ca'nt disagree.But you're seeing it so off in my opinion that I can't help mentioning it. I'm am not interpretting it and assuming I'm right, either.After yrs of reading, and compaing several interprations, it's more by expereinceing the actual results that anything so directly as I am.. Brian, I thought I had nothing else to add–but..I can’t understand even why you think how you do.
That The Marrying Maiden is most about women or prostitution is a much more narrow or limited/tradtiional view in itself.
You know yourself the I Ching is abstract, and encompasses many istuations, and life matters in one hexagram alone.
#54 is’nt even always about women, it’s all metaphor.But I knw you know that!
I’m not at all saying we ca’nt disagree.But you’re seeing it so off in my opinion that I can’t help mentioning it.
I’m am not interpretting it and assuming I’m right, either.After yrs of reading, and compaing several interprations, it’s more by expereinceing the actual results that anything so directly as I am..

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By: Karuna http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1123 Karuna Tue, 17 Jun 2008 04:02:42 +0000 http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1123 Well, I respectively disagree.I'm surpised you think that about what I suiggested I honestly thought the same thing in reverse but hadn't said so.I It seemed it was you who was reading it in a very narrow and tradtional way! Well, I respectively disagree.I’m surpised you think that about what I suiggested I honestly thought the same thing in reverse but hadn’t said so.I It seemed it was you who was reading it in a very narrow and tradtional way!

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By: Brian http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1122 Brian Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:47:19 +0000 http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1122 Hi Karuna, Thanks for your comments. Just for the record, I never said Wing's Workbook was "great," just that I'd been using it for a long time. As it happens, Wing is excellent: very level headed and embracing of uncertainty, which is find an admirable quality. Also, I think you're reading the I Ching in a very narrow, traditional way. The Marrying Maiden certainly is about pimping women, and has a twofold interpretation. This is evident in lines 3 and four. But more on that soon in the second part of the essay. --Brian Hi Karuna,

Thanks for your comments. Just for the record, I never said Wing’s Workbook was “great,” just that I’d been using it for a long time. As it happens, Wing is excellent: very level headed and embracing of uncertainty, which is find an admirable quality. Also, I think you’re reading the I Ching in a very narrow, traditional way. The Marrying Maiden certainly is about pimping women, and has a twofold interpretation. This is evident in lines 3 and four. But more on that soon in the second part of the essay. –Brian

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By: Karuna http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1121 Karuna Tue, 17 Jun 2008 02:00:21 +0000 http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1121 Now this was interesting, I like that --"sometimes perseverance is just stupid"--LOL.Yes, indeed. The hexagram #54, the Marrying Maiden isn't at all about pimping women --not even slightly. It is as you say, a person who is in favor, but not in power. She or he appeals to the "ruler" not just sexually, but there are feelings of affection that exist absolutely--but no true marriage contract, as in the 1st wife's arrangement. It makes sense..he or she can't decide what others should do, can't even decide much what she/he should do, but can as you say wait, and fit in, knowing his/her place is important, but not outwardly and w/o announcing it. Btw, just for thought/information.As a recovering sex and love addict myself, I think the #61 line 3, and the #36 was probably suggesting that you would rise and fall as a woman appealed to you, but it gave her or the relationship your power . If she disappeared or slighted you, evne temporaily you'd have very little else tohold you up. The 'hiding your light under a bushel" in #36 makes sense in the way you descirbed it.My thought was that it was telling you that no matter how many women you met, loved or slept with --what you were looking for was'nt really in them.:-) Now this was interesting, I like that –”sometimes perseverance is just stupid”–LOL.Yes, indeed.

The hexagram #54, the Marrying Maiden isn’t at all about pimping women –not even slightly.
It is as you say, a person who is in favor, but not in power.
She or he appeals to the “ruler” not just sexually, but there are feelings of affection that exist absolutely–but no true marriage contract, as in the 1st wife’s arrangement.
It makes sense..he or she can’t decide what others should do, can’t even decide much what she/he should do, but can as you say wait, and fit in, knowing his/her place is important, but not outwardly and w/o announcing it.

Btw, just for thought/information.As a recovering sex and love addict myself, I think the #61 line 3, and the #36 was probably suggesting that you would rise and fall as a woman appealed to you, but it gave her or the relationship your power .
If she disappeared or slighted you, evne temporaily you’d have very little else tohold you up.
The ‘hiding your light under a bushel” in #36 makes sense in the way you descirbed it.My thought was that it was telling you that no matter how many women you met, loved or slept with –what you were looking for was’nt really in them.:-)

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By: Karuna http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1120 Karuna Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:46:32 +0000 http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1120 Thank you for writing about the I Ching, which I'm always glad to read about , even if I already know the information. But dear writer, I've been consulting the I Ching for 39 yrs, and RL Wing's workbook is OK, but nothing great. . Thank you for writing about the I Ching, which I’m always glad to read about , even if I already know the information.
But dear writer, I’ve been consulting the I Ching for 39 yrs, and RL Wing’s workbook is OK, but nothing great. .

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By: Luis Andrade http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1112 Luis Andrade Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:10:45 +0000 http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1112 Brian - A little visual aid on 54 that can be interpreted in many ways and will most likely bring to light many of our cultural biases. However, this one has direct Chinese roots and hasn't been spoiled by translation. It is though, an interpretation of a Chinese artist, albeit contemporary. It doesn't dispel ambiguity but rather feeds it.... http://www.yitoons.com/yicards/yicard54.jpg I would like to address Desmond's comment: IMO, we have the illusion of individuality only because we live within the bubble of an endless internal dialogue with ourselves. We are, however, the acting participants, and occasional victims, of our social environment. You are much more likely to be--scrap that, "you will be"--influenced in your decisions by said environment than by any oracular tool you may use. However, the tool, as used tête–à–tête, will allow you, and grant you the opportunity, to enhance your internal dialogue and thus your "individuality" in decision making. In the end, you will always be responsible for, and held accountable for, your decisions, regardless of what influenced them. If I have the opportunity though, I rather use all the tools available at my disposal to have a fair chance of success. That includes the Yijing and not just my immediate exterior environment. Bear also in mind that the Yijing is not a deterministic oracle. It is more of a map; a flowchart: you'll still have every opportunity to follow any path you want, albeit with a few warning signs in-between. Best, L Brian - A little visual aid on 54 that can be interpreted in many ways and will most likely bring to light many of our cultural biases. However, this one has direct Chinese roots and hasn’t been spoiled by translation. It is though, an interpretation of a Chinese artist, albeit contemporary. It doesn’t dispel ambiguity but rather feeds it….

http://www.yitoons.com/yicards/yicard54.jpg

I would like to address Desmond’s comment: IMO, we have the illusion of individuality only because we live within the bubble of an endless internal dialogue with ourselves. We are, however, the acting participants, and occasional victims, of our social environment. You are much more likely to be–scrap that, “you will be”–influenced in your decisions by said environment than by any oracular tool you may use. However, the tool, as used tête–à–tête, will allow you, and grant you the opportunity, to enhance your internal dialogue and thus your “individuality” in decision making. In the end, you will always be responsible for, and held accountable for, your decisions, regardless of what influenced them. If I have the opportunity though, I rather use all the tools available at my disposal to have a fair chance of success. That includes the Yijing and not just my immediate exterior environment.

Bear also in mind that the Yijing is not a deterministic oracle. It is more of a map; a flowchart: you’ll still have every opportunity to follow any path you want, albeit with a few warning signs in-between.

Best,

L

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By: Brian http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1111 Brian Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:47:51 +0000 http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1111 Desmond - you ask an important question! I think dependence is something R.L. Wing addresses, at least tacitly, and it's certainly a question I want to consider. Luis - I think you're correct that integration is the way to read the Changes, and I do grant that the matriarchal/patriarchal dichotomy is simplistic. (And yes I do have a long involvement with poetry!) I don't think the issue, in any case, is a matter of kindness, but rather of the right to wait until the time is right, rather than having someone make the decision for you. I think that touches on Desmond's concern, as well. I'm humbled and fascinated by the interest my far-from-expert essay, on this tiny blog in a far corner of the 'sphere, has raised. I hope to have a follow-on piece ready in a few days, one that is strongly shaped by the comments here. Desmond - you ask an important question! I think dependence is something R.L. Wing addresses, at least tacitly, and it’s certainly a question I want to consider.
Luis - I think you’re correct that integration is the way to read the Changes, and I do grant that the matriarchal/patriarchal dichotomy is simplistic. (And yes I do have a long involvement with poetry!) I don’t think the issue, in any case, is a matter of kindness, but rather of the right to wait until the time is right, rather than having someone make the decision for you. I think that touches on Desmond’s concern, as well.
I’m humbled and fascinated by the interest my far-from-expert essay, on this tiny blog in a far corner of the ’sphere, has raised. I hope to have a follow-on piece ready in a few days, one that is strongly shaped by the comments here.

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By: Luis Andrade http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1110 Luis Andrade Wed, 04 Jun 2008 14:32:20 +0000 http://www.briancharlesclark.com/something-about-the-i-ching/#comment-1110 Brian, thanks so much for your reply. A further thought: <blockquote>I wasn’t trying to pass judgment so much as chew on the opposite readings of The Marrying Maiden from matriarchal and patriarchal points of view. <b>In the latter, one is a slave to another’s desire, whim or agenda. In the former, the self exerts its prerogative to wait for love. That’s a mighty forceful contradiction; like an engine, it makes my head spin round!</b> I guess I could have been clearer, so thanks for spurring further thinking on the matter. — Brian</blockquote> My only qualm with that is that it appears to show a dichotomy ("matriarchal" and "patriarchal") that doesn't really exist in the essence of the Yijing. IMO, those are little semantic and philological traps built into the text that can lead to misinterpretations. Most of the time, we derive those meanings based on our cultural background (a mighty risk of that while using and interpreting any Eastern sacred text in the West and vice-versa) No implicit fault there but, collective objectivity doesn't really exist; it is rather collective "subjectivity" what dominates our opinions--if we allow it... Hence the suggestion of projection and empathy before diving into the interpretation of the oracle. Dipping a finger in the water will save you from a scalding... I believe that one of the basic tenets of the Yijing is that integration, not dichotomy, is the leading force behind "Change," as it is presented, conceptually, in the Classic. I'll say this with admiration and not an ounce of disrespect, but your mention of "love" and the implicit dichotomy of "matriarchal" vs "patriarchal," whereby the former is presented as the "kinder" side of the coin, shows your background and involvement in poetry (mind you, I don't know you at all but basing my opinion on what I've read here in your site and posts. I apologize if I'm mistaken.) Historically though, the facts do not fully support a romanticized view of the many Emperors and Dynasties of China. Power, wielded by either a man or a woman, is power imposed on others. Historically, women in positions of power, from Empress down, were anything but "kinder" than their male counterparts... Perhaps, the argument can be made that they were working and manipulating from within a "patriarchal" society but, from my point of view, a woman in such a position of power, and her deeds thereof, is not a masculinized version of herself... (Hillary Clinton and her pantsuits aside, of course. LOL!) Best, Luis Brian, thanks so much for your reply. A further thought:

I wasn’t trying to pass judgment so much as chew on the opposite readings of The Marrying Maiden from matriarchal and patriarchal points of view. In the latter, one is a slave to another’s desire, whim or agenda. In the former, the self exerts its prerogative to wait for love. That’s a mighty forceful contradiction; like an engine, it makes my head spin round! I guess I could have been clearer, so thanks for spurring further thinking on the matter. — Brian

My only qualm with that is that it appears to show a dichotomy (”matriarchal” and “patriarchal”) that doesn’t really exist in the essence of the Yijing. IMO, those are little semantic and philological traps built into the text that can lead to misinterpretations. Most of the time, we derive those meanings based on our cultural background (a mighty risk of that while using and interpreting any Eastern sacred text in the West and vice-versa) No implicit fault there but, collective objectivity doesn’t really exist; it is rather collective “subjectivity” what dominates our opinions–if we allow it… Hence the suggestion of projection and empathy before diving into the interpretation of the oracle. Dipping a finger in the water will save you from a scalding… I believe that one of the basic tenets of the Yijing is that integration, not dichotomy, is the leading force behind “Change,” as it is presented, conceptually, in the Classic.

I’ll say this with admiration and not an ounce of disrespect, but your mention of “love” and the implicit dichotomy of “matriarchal” vs “patriarchal,” whereby the former is presented as the “kinder” side of the coin, shows your background and involvement in poetry (mind you, I don’t know you at all but basing my opinion on what I’ve read here in your site and posts. I apologize if I’m mistaken.) Historically though, the facts do not fully support a romanticized view of the many Emperors and Dynasties of China. Power, wielded by either a man or a woman, is power imposed on others. Historically, women in positions of power, from Empress down, were anything but “kinder” than their male counterparts… Perhaps, the argument can be made that they were working and manipulating from within a “patriarchal” society but, from my point of view, a woman in such a position of power, and her deeds thereof, is not a masculinized version of herself… (Hillary Clinton and her pantsuits aside, of course. LOL!)

Best,

Luis

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